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woberdor's picture
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Joined: 09/30/2012

Ugghhhh wtf I just got back from the gym today after not going to the gym for a few months. Before I could bench 155x5 pounds, which is nothing special at all, and now I was trying 135 as a warm up to my regular weight and couldn't even get one rep up... one of the dudes nearby was kind enough to take it off me. All my other lifts have plummeted too. Like jesus christ how does this even happen.

I'm very disappointed in myself right now and want to make it a priority to get to 1/2/3/4 fast. So this is how I want to go about it:

3x5-8 sets of bench. I should be able to add a rep or 5 pounds per workout.

3x5-8 sets of OHP. I should be able to add a rep or 5 pounds every other workout.

1x5 set of deadlift. I should be able to add 15 pounds per workout.

3x-5-8 sets of legpress/squat. I should be able to add 10 pounds to squat per workout.

3 sets of chins to failure.

5-6 days a week. I am 6'1" 145 pounds. I will need around 2500 calories and 100g of protein.

Do you guys agree with this? Do I need to make changes? If any of this is retarded please tell me. I want results, not to just fuck around and pretend I'm getting somewhere.

Thanks!

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Boomer (not verified)
Just do occam protocol and

http://www.4hourlife.com/2011/05/08/occams-protocol-step-by-step-plus-a-...
do occam protocol and eat until you cant eat anymore. Eat like its your job. You have to eat a lot more than that.

Put more specific link. Working out with compound exercises to failure, with a long rest break and lots of food is how you build muscle. Overworking that much you posted you are going to be slow gainer.

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I just went to the Gym

I just went to the Gym wednesday after 2 weeks and Felt weak as fuck but I knew this is normal when you stop rupturing your muscles on a weekly basis.

 

Bench 

145x8

135x10

125x12

115x15

 

Squats

155x8

145x10

135x13

 

Deadlift

185x8

165x10

135x15

 

PULL UPS 

ABS

I do Max's first and go down on weight, the more constant I am the more weight I can max out to.

If that helps in any way.

Cheers

woberdor's picture
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Joined: 09/30/2012
Nice, I should implement RPT.

Nice, I should implement RPT. I also know that Berkhan uses lots of rest between sets (like 5 mins) so I'm gonna do that too.

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You need to eat more.  Up

You need to eat more.  Up your protein in grams per day to your target body weight -- so if you want to weigh 160lbs, then eat 160g of protein per day.  And love dem carbs too.  You have the amazing ability to eat lots of rice, bread, and pasta if you want.  If you're gut is good with dairy, bring back some whole milk.  Make it chocolate if you need to to get it down. 

Get your exercise order and set and rep scheme together. 

Pick 1 either squat or deadlift (do not do both in the same workout) and put it first.  Yeah yeah errybody wants to wail on the pecs first, but you gotta prioritize correctly.  Biggest exercises that put the most strain on your nervous system and muscles must go first. 

You should have another back exercise in there that is a horizontal pull something like this

How many chins are you doing?  Are they easy for you?  Are you doing a full range of motion, i.e. do you go all the way to a dead hang on each rep?

Answer these questions and we'll go from there. 

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Joined: 04/07/2014
At your lifting stats and

At your lifting stats and weight you need STARTING STRENGTH.

Adds 5 lbs to the bar EVERY workout consistently.

woberdor's picture
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Joined: 09/30/2012
Archangel wrote: You need to

Archangel wrote:
You need to eat more.

So you're saying I need more than 2500 calories? I haven't been doing that prior to today btw.

Archangel wrote:
Up your protein in grams per day to your target body weight -- so if you want to weigh 160lbs, then eat 160g of protein per day.

 

Yeah the only reason why I said 120g is because Bateman said in another thread that there's no point in going over 0.82g protein per lb of bodyweight. He has a lot of fitness cred around here so idk. http://manwhore.org/forum/content/bulking-and-cutting-same-time-its-pain... check the very last post.

Archangel wrote:
Pick 1 either squat or deadlift (do not do both in the same workout) and put it first.  Yeah yeah errybody wants to wail on the pecs first, but you gotta prioritize correctly.  Biggest exercises that put the most strain on your nervous system and muscles must go first.

Yeah good point, I'll alternate those two.

Archangel wrote:
You should have another back exercise in there that is a horizontal pull something like this

Nice man, I'll add that in.

Archangel wrote:
How many chins are you doing?  Are they easy for you?  Are you doing a full range of motion, i.e. do you go all the way to a dead hang on each rep?

I can do 10-11 now to reach failure, down from 15. They aren't terribly difficult except for the last 2-3 reps. And yes I'm going from dead hang everytime.

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If you want to get bigger and

If you want to get bigger and stronger you need to eat more.  As with all things related to losing fat or gaining muscle we are all unique snowflakes, so information provided to you by other people are guidelines based on the available evidence.  But you must try it out for yourself and see if it works or not.  Bateman's figure probably comes from a review or meta analysis so it takes into account the results of multiple studies involving very many people. 

Because your height and weight stats give me and others the impression that a stiff breeze would take you out, we are telling you to eat more.  The guideline for setting protein at your desired body weight is useful for skinny guys in setting the proper mindset that if you want to grow, you need to eat.  Eat for the man you want to be.  Is it absolutely necessary?  Who knows, but you're the only one who can ultimately figure that out for yourself. 

Either way, add in more protein and more carbs and see what happens.

Also, since you're doing well with the chins, try this out if your gym has a belt.

If they don't have a belt you can ask someone to place a dumbbell between your feet, and you hold it in position with your feet while you do your chins.  Start at 25lbs and see what happens. 

woberdor's picture
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Alright man I'll hit up more

Alright man I'll hit up more protein since you almost the entire world says 1g per lb is a good idea lol. I'll also set 2500 as a bare minimum and seek to get more.

I'll also try the 25lb belt, but I don't have high expectations since the only reason why I'm doing well with the chins is the fact that I don't have much weight to move.

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woberdor wrote: I'll also

woberdor wrote:

I'll also try the 25lb belt, but I don't have high expectations since the only reason why I'm doing well with the chins is the fact that I don't have much weight to move.

Lol I know..that's precisely why I suggested it! 

If you take on thing away from this exchange make it this next sentence:  Everything anyone ever tells you related to fat loss or muscle gain are simply *guidelines.*  You must implement the guidelines and then adjust up or down in order to customize the program for yourself, to tailor it your your body. 

If adding 25lbs is too much, then drop down to 15lbs or 20lbs.  If its easy, then try 30lbs or 35lbs. 

Same thing with the food.  You will be able to tell based on the mirror, the fit of your clothes, the way you feel, and the scale whether or not you need to eat more to reach your goal or if you need to eat less.  And yes, you can play around with different amounts of protein over time vs different amounts of carbs.  K?

Report back in a month.  Don't sweat smaller time periods.  And be consistent!  Make it a part of your schedule and do not skip unless there is a real emergency.  Being hungover or having a sore throat or your dog puking on the floor or needing to watch GOT is not an emergency. 

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Joined: 01/18/2012
Remember, fitness is not just

Remember, fitness is not just for the gym. I go to the gym very regularly but I also do calisthenics at home every day. I've got a pullup bar I use every day, a couple of 20lbs barbells I do squats with and military presses as well as light deadlifts. You need to make fitness a part of your every day life. You didn't go to the gym for a few months..? Pathetic. Keep on it. 

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I've got a great program I

I've got a great program I can send you. It focuses on building a solid foundation of good balance and perfect posture first before hitting the big lifts. You'll be functionally strong and 30-40 lbs heavier in a year. I put on 20 lbs and dropped body fat within the first 4 months, I was eating 3 square meals a day (40-60 grams of protein with a shit ton of veggies each meal) with two scoops of whey and snacks in between. Worked great for me

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yo iam just getting back in

yo iam just getting back in the gym too, gotta fuckin eat more

Icewahine can you send this program to me too? would appreciate it bro!

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Infinity's picture
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Joined: 09/18/2013
Woberdor you may not be doing

Woberdor you may not be doing enough reps. It kindof looks like you're doing a power lifter workput. Im no expert at all but I have a trainer every now and then, he had me doing less weight, more reps and going slower on each rep. He said each set should put your muscles under constant load for 40-60 secs. I had a bad habit of trying to blast through the set and letting the weight drop too fast.

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Boomer (not verified)
urge you all to take a look at the occam protocol

If you like spending your time in the gym, by all means do the multiset program. If you want to build muscle the most efficiently do the body by science or occam protocol. And yes it does insist on time under tension as Infinity mentioned. Over 60 seconds and slowly so that all your muscle fibers are stimulated as you dig deeper and deeper into them to continue.
Plan calibrates itself upward as you gain strength. Go to failure and fight the weight to the last rep and slowly unload on last possible rep.
Major muscles hit in compound exercise once per week with one set. You should have that much rest between if you push to failure.
And eat plenty and rest plenty. This will change your hormones and you will build muscle quickly from these stimuli. Overtrain and you will inhibit your full potential and waste some time.

Extra sets are not going to stimulate your muscle growth any additionally if you go to failure in this way.

What his comes from Body by science researchered approach to muscle development. A variation of it is occam which is better for those without private gym.

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Boomer wrote:If you like

Boomer wrote:
If you like spending your time in the gym, by all means do the multiset program. If you want to build muscle the most efficiently do the body by science or occam protocol. And yes it does insist on time under tension as Infinity mentioned. Over 60 seconds and slowly so that all your muscle fibers are stimulated as you dig deeper and deeper into them to continue. Plan calibrates itself upward as you gain strength. Go to failure and fight the weight to the last rep and slowly unload on last possible rep. Major muscles hit in compound exercise once per week with one set. You should have that much rest between if you push to failure. And eat plenty and rest plenty. This will change your hormones and you will build muscle quickly from these stimuli. Overtrain and you will inhibit your full potential and waste some time. Extra sets are not going to stimulate your muscle growth any additionally if you go to failure in this way. What his comes from Body by science researchered approach to muscle development. A variation of it is occam which is better for those without private gym.

Please don't steer him in this direction. 

This is what Lyle McDonald had to say about Body by Science/HIT/Super Slow training:

"It's total garbage."

To be fair, it has been shown to be rather effective in training the 60-80 year old demographic. 

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Hate on BB.com if you want,

Hate on BB.com if you want, but I've been using this wourkout.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/steve-cook-big-man-on-campus-12-week-col...

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patrick.bateman's picture
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You can definitely eat 1g per

You can definitely eat 1g per pound of bodyweight, that's completely fine. But the research shows that the maximal benefit is at 0.82g per pound. I've been experimenting with even less than this, well because, hormonally, you get better increases in testosterone from fats and carbs. 

But training whole body 5-6 days per week is absurd. You need to understand recovery. It takes your muscles, and the local neurons that fire those muscles time to recover. 

I'd lift 3 days per week on non consecutive days. Neurally you are very weak so you probably don't even need to do reverse pyramid until you start to plateau in your training.

I think 3 sets of 5-6 reps per movement is right on the money. Also don't do deadlifts before squats, it will completely make you injury prone for the squats. 

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Building strenght is a long

Building strenght is a long term process man. Don't try to rush it.

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patrick.bateman wrote: You

patrick.bateman wrote:
You can definitely eat 1g per pound of bodyweight, that's completely fine. But the research shows that the maximal benefit is at 0.82g per pound. I've been experimenting with even less than this, well because, hormonally, you get better increases in testosterone from fats and carbs. 

But training whole body 5-6 days per week is absurd. You need to understand recovery. It takes your muscles, and the local neurons that fire those muscles time to recover. 

I'd lift 3 days per week on non consecutive days. Neurally you are very weak so you probably don't even need to do reverse pyramid until you start to plateau in your training.

I think 3 sets of 5-6 reps per movement is right on the money. Also don't do deadlifts before squats, it will completely make you injury prone for the squats. 

Agreed. I do 3 x a week non consecutive days. Wish I would have done this when I started. Would have been so much further. Waste less time in the gym and get MORE results. Most guys think that going all out in the gym = results. Recovery is HALF the battle. You have to know WHEN to go to failure (very rarely). Thats like sprinting for the first few miles of a marathon and wondering why you lost. Most of these 5+ day routines are for guys using drugs (and most of them lying saying they don't) so they can get paid. 

Anway most people won't listen to anything you say. It comes down to experience and learning shit on your own. Most guys are enthusiastic when they start so they want to be in the gym all the time, but won't get optimal results.

woberdor's picture
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patrick.bateman wrote: You

patrick.bateman wrote:
You can definitely eat 1g per pound of bodyweight, that's completely fine. But the research shows that the maximal benefit is at 0.82g per pound. I've been experimenting with even less than this, well because, hormonally, you get better increases in testosterone from fats and carbs. 

But training whole body 5-6 days per week is absurd. You need to understand recovery. It takes your muscles, and the local neurons that fire those muscles time to recover. 

I'd lift 3 days per week on non consecutive days. Neurally you are very weak so you probably don't even need to do reverse pyramid until you start to plateau in your training.

I think 3 sets of 5-6 reps per movement is right on the money. Also don't do deadlifts before squats, it will completely make you injury prone for the squats. 

Nice Bateman. I've seen pics of you and some of your shit online and lets just say that it's hard to ignore your advice lol. I'll start training 3x a week full body and just put legs at the end.

I got the 5-6 days a week thing from BB.com. I'll obviously listen to PB but I just want to be clear that I didn't pull it out of my ass:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=135564721

Babylover wrote:
Train more often! I advocate a minimum 3x a week, but how often are beginners, once the initial soreness subsides after the first week gunning to train more. To which fat unconditioned idiots always cry 'overtrainig.' Let me make this very clear. Someone who can't squat 225x5 is physically incapable of overtraining. You simply do not have the CNS recruitment to overtrain. So, instead of sticking to the A B A, B A B, format, train as often as you feel like it. If you can go 6 days straight alternating the two workouts, all the power to you, if you are starting to feel to beaten up, drop back to 3-4. Either way, just train MORE often. You need to stop thinking session to session, and instead sit back and realise how much more volume you will complete over a 6 month period training 4x a week instead of 3. That's a 33% load increase just from doing one extra session."

Archangel wrote:
This is what Lyle McDonald had to say about Body by Science/HIT/Super Slow training:

"It's total garbage."

To be fair, it has been shown to be rather effective in training the 60-80 year old demographic.

I think we can all agree that it is very hard to argue against Lyle McDonald.

Thanks to all the guys I didn't get around to.

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Just had lyle mcdonald on my

Just had lyle mcdonald on my podcast! He is the most brilliant fucker around. 

Here's an article of mine showcasing 3 days per week as an optimal strategy

http://kinobody.com/workouts-and-exercises/the-magic-of-lifting-three-da...

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And Woberdor, you're right.

And Woberdor, you're right. As a beginner you won't create that much cns depletion. But you still won't want to train muscle groups on back to back days. Those muscle groups and local neurons will still be recovering. Your central nervous sytem may be fresh daily though. 

So if you wanted to train everyday you'd want to do an A B split. And alternate between A and B. and then maybe have two rest days. When you are getting burned out and are having trouble making progress because of neural fatigue. Train on an every other day basis. 

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And Woberdor, you're right.

And Woberdor, you're right. As a beginner you won't create that much cns depletion. But you still won't want to train muscle groups on back to back days. Those muscle groups and local neurons will still be recovering. Your central nervous sytem may be fresh daily though. 

So if you wanted to train everyday you'd want to do an A B split. And alternate between A and B. and then maybe have two rest days. When you are getting burned out and are having trouble making progress because of neural fatigue. Train on an every other day basis. 

But if you're doing full body workouts 3 days per week, that will result in MASSIVE growth. Think about hitting personal records on all your lifts 3 days per week. That's insane. You'll be progressing 3x as fast as most people. Trying to hit those workout more often is just greedy. Now obviously this progress won't last that long before it fades and you need to move past the full body workout phase. 

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patrick.bateman wrote: Just

patrick.bateman wrote:
Just had lyle mcdonald on my podcast! He is the most brilliant fucker around. 

Here's an article of mine showcasing 3 days per week as an optimal strategy

http://kinobody.com/workouts-and-exercises/the-magic-of-lifting-three-days-per-week/

what do you think of madcows ? 5/3/1? which one would you rather do? I've been on madcows for 4-5 months and its great but sucks for arms. (which is my weakest bodypart.)

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patrick.bateman wrote: Just

patrick.bateman wrote:
Just had lyle mcdonald on my podcast! He is the most brilliant fucker around. 

Here's an article of mine showcasing 3 days per week as an optimal strategy

http://kinobody.com/workouts-and-exercises/the-magic-of-lifting-three-days-per-week/

Wow!  You gotta tell me how you got him to agree to your podcast.  When I was trying to break into the industry 5 years ago I was emailing back and forth with him.  I posted something (I can't remember exactly what but I was def trolling) on his forum and he went off on me in email telling me to go fuck myself etc. 

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CongruentBrah

CongruentBrah wrote:
patrick.bateman wrote:
Just had lyle mcdonald on my podcast! He is the most brilliant fucker around. 

Here's an article of mine showcasing 3 days per week as an optimal strategy

http://kinobody.com/workouts-and-exercises/the-magic-of-lifting-three-days-per-week/

what do you think of madcows ? 5/3/1? which one would you rather do? I've been on madcows for 4-5 months and its great but sucks for arms. (which is my weakest bodypart.)

No. Most of your training should fall in the 4-10 rep range. Anything less than 4 reps is not ideal for muscle growth. 

Eventually RPT is the best way to train.

Set 1 - 4-6

Set 2 - 6-8

Set 3 - 8-10  

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CongruentBrah

CongruentBrah wrote:
patrick.bateman wrote:
Just had lyle mcdonald on my podcast! He is the most brilliant fucker around. 

Here's an article of mine showcasing 3 days per week as an optimal strategy

http://kinobody.com/workouts-and-exercises/the-magic-of-lifting-three-days-per-week/

what do you think of madcows ? 5/3/1? which one would you rather do? I've been on madcows for 4-5 months and its great but sucks for arms. (which is my weakest bodypart.)

No. Most of your training should fall in the 4-10 rep range. Anything less than 4 reps is not ideal for muscle growth. 

Eventually RPT is the best way to train.

Set 1 - 4-6

Set 2 - 6-8

Set 3 - 8-10  

And for isolation movements, I recommend rest pause 

Boomer (not verified)
Archangel wrote: Boomer

Archangel wrote:
Boomer wrote:
If you like spending your time in the gym, by all means do the multiset program. If you want to build muscle the most efficiently do the body by science or occam protocol. And yes it does insist on time under tension as Infinity mentioned. Over 60 seconds and slowly so that all your muscle fibers are stimulated as you dig deeper and deeper into them to continue. Plan calibrates itself upward as you gain strength. Go to failure and fight the weight to the last rep and slowly unload on last possible rep. Major muscles hit in compound exercise once per week with one set. You should have that much rest between if you push to failure. And eat plenty and rest plenty. This will change your hormones and you will build muscle quickly from these stimuli. Overtrain and you will inhibit your full potential and waste some time. Extra sets are not going to stimulate your muscle growth any additionally if you go to failure in this way. What his comes from Body by science researchered approach to muscle development. A variation of it is occam which is better for those without private gym.

Please don't steer him in this direction. 

This is what Lyle McDonald had to say about Body by Science/HIT/Super Slow training:

"It's total garbage

."

To be fair, it has been shown to be rather effective in training the 60-80 year old demographic. 
Yeah looks like limited to newbie levels. Not best for mass.

However what is the point of the extra sets after first in rpt?
And you never go to failure and still works huh? I'm surprised.

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RPT you go right before

RPT you go right before failure. As many reps as possible without failing like a fucktard 

WTF do you mean, what's the point of the additional sets? Volume mother fucker. One set will build strength and some muscle. But you need to do a couple more if you want to trigger more muscle growth.

What's so fcukng powerful about RPT is that after doing your heavy set first, you have triggered post exercise potentiation. Meaning now the next two sets, you'll get a lot more muscle fiber activation. This is why if you were to lift a heavy weight, rest, then lift a lighter weight. The lighter weight would feel way lighter than it should. The heavy set amped up your nervous system.

This means doing a heavy weight first, will make any lighter sets you do afterwards, more effective at building muscle 

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Ok so I'm back to benching a

Ok so I'm back to benching a plate 3x5. Thanks guys. Nothing to write home about for sure, but I'm glad I was able to get closer to where I was. This is starting from 115 btw.

-Deadlift is at 185x5. My form is really getting better.

-Bench is 135x5

-OHP is 85x5. This is proving hard as fuck to progress at btw...

-I'm using some machine called "Low Row" for my horizontal pull and I'm at 10x5, but I have no idea how good or bad that is.

-Chins are at 13-15. I tried weight and everything over 5 pounds was putting me under 5 reps. And tbh I felt like a tool with a belt with 5 lbs lol so when I can consistently do 15 chins I'll put weight back on.

-I keep getting minor knee pain and lower back pain when I squat. I fucking suck at squatting lol. I've been using the leg press machines lately.

Other notes:

-Eating meat all the time fuckin sucks. It's very filling and expensive. I bought a big ass protein jar off of Amazon and never looked back. This would be VERY hard to do without.

-Due to my job I'm usually in another city by lunch, so I eat out a lot which REALLY helps my calorie and protein goals.

-I feel exhausted and destroyed by the time I'm done in the gym.

-This forum keeps adding and taking away my line breaks and returns.

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