My Counter to Ayn Rand: In better words than I could have put it
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 03:44
Also: In words that Ayn Rand would be able to relate to...
"A major revolution to be won in the immediate future is the dissipation of man’s illusion that his own welfare can be separate from man’s illusion that his own welfare can be separate from that of all others. As long as man is shackled to this myth, so long will the human spirit languish. Concern for our private, material well-being with disregard for the well-being of others is immoral according to the precepts of our Judaeo-Christian civilization, but worse, it is stupidity worthy of lower animals. It is man’s foot still dragging in the primeval slim of his beginnings, in ignorance and mere animal cunning. But those who know the interdependence of man to be his major strength in the struggle out of the muck have not been wise in their exhortations and moral pronouncements that man is his brother’s keeper. On that score the record of the past centuries has been a disaster, for it is wrong to assume that man would pursue morality on a level higher than his day-to-day living demanded; it was a disservice to the future to separate morality from man’s daily desires and elevate it to a plane of altruism and self-sacrifice. The fact is that it is not man’s “better nature” but his self-interest that demands that he be his brother’s keeper. We now live in a world where no man can have a loaf of bread while his neighbor has none. If he does not share his bread, he dare not sleep, for his neighbor will kill him. To eat and sleep in safety man must do the right thing, if for seemingly the wrong reasons, and be in practice his brother’s keeper."
-Saul Alinksy
"A major revolution to be won in the immediate future is the dissipation of man’s illusion that his own welfare can be separate from man’s illusion that his own welfare can be separate from that of all others. As long as man is shackled to this myth, so long will the human spirit languish. Concern for our private, material well-being with disregard for the well-being of others is immoral according to the precepts of our Judaeo-Christian civilization, but worse, it is stupidity worthy of lower animals. It is man’s foot still dragging in the primeval slim of his beginnings, in ignorance and mere animal cunning. But those who know the interdependence of man to be his major strength in the struggle out of the muck have not been wise in their exhortations and moral pronouncements that man is his brother’s keeper. On that score the record of the past centuries has been a disaster, for it is wrong to assume that man would pursue morality on a level higher than his day-to-day living demanded; it was a disservice to the future to separate morality from man’s daily desires and elevate it to a plane of altruism and self-sacrifice. The fact is that it is not man’s “better nature” but his self-interest that demands that he be his brother’s keeper. We now live in a world where no man can have a loaf of bread while his neighbor has none. If he does not share his bread, he dare not sleep, for his neighbor will kill him. To eat and sleep in safety man must do the right thing, if for seemingly the wrong reasons, and be in practice his brother’s keeper."
-Saul Alinksy
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 06:10
#1
Ayn Rand is a bad bitch
Ayn Rand is a bad bitch
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 06:38
#2
Re: Ayn Rand's a bad bitch
@buddhagames:
There's a lot of interdependence of man demonstrated in Atlas Shrugged.
There's a lot of interdependence of man demonstrated in Atlas Shrugged.
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 11:21
#3
There's no black or white in
There's no black or white in this world. People only look for it to make their lives easier.
She was writing from an idealist perspective (which to maximize effectiveness must be in black and white) to illustrate some AMAZING points. The pure and true value of the human ego. To achieve, to dream. To conquer and change the world for the better.
I love Ayn Rand, simply because a good portion of what she wrote on is amazing (sure there were problems in her life just like everyone else), and I love the figure of Howard Roark who lived for something/ was the illustration of an idea that I needed to experience and internalize. The pure unadulterated reason for the existence of the ego. Without the bickering, without the "mind" trying to complain and envy and hate, just to take the emphasis on the work it needs to do; because after all is said and done, all it is is Man's drive for achievement and wild accomplishment. The ability to dream and ACT on it, and be driven to bleed for it.
Just like Jeffy says.. pimping is a lifestyle. You must LIVE it, if only for a little while, to really incorporate "game" into who you are.
But none of this means that the above quote is not also very very true. I grew up on food stamps and community programs and harbor NO ill will towards the American "socialist" outreach programs designed to reach out to youngsters and their families in need :). I came out of it. I am a product of that environment. I'm grateful to pay my taxes to live in an imperfect society that is made up of other bumbling humans trying to do the best they can. We will fix our problems. Yes Wall St. needs regulation, yes we need universal health care, we need to teach people to be better parents, we need to revamp the justice system. And we also probably need to take the emphasis (at least for a short time) off of other countries and focus it more on ourselves. It's almost like the old imperialist system was able to take the emphasis off itself and its own internal problems, by "acquisitioning" resources from other countries to support its own bullshit, rather than fix itself. It's always better to BE the shining example, rather than trying to just force other countries into compliance.
She was writing from an idealist perspective (which to maximize effectiveness must be in black and white) to illustrate some AMAZING points. The pure and true value of the human ego. To achieve, to dream. To conquer and change the world for the better.
I love Ayn Rand, simply because a good portion of what she wrote on is amazing (sure there were problems in her life just like everyone else), and I love the figure of Howard Roark who lived for something/ was the illustration of an idea that I needed to experience and internalize. The pure unadulterated reason for the existence of the ego. Without the bickering, without the "mind" trying to complain and envy and hate, just to take the emphasis on the work it needs to do; because after all is said and done, all it is is Man's drive for achievement and wild accomplishment. The ability to dream and ACT on it, and be driven to bleed for it.
Just like Jeffy says.. pimping is a lifestyle. You must LIVE it, if only for a little while, to really incorporate "game" into who you are.
But none of this means that the above quote is not also very very true. I grew up on food stamps and community programs and harbor NO ill will towards the American "socialist" outreach programs designed to reach out to youngsters and their families in need :). I came out of it. I am a product of that environment. I'm grateful to pay my taxes to live in an imperfect society that is made up of other bumbling humans trying to do the best they can. We will fix our problems. Yes Wall St. needs regulation, yes we need universal health care, we need to teach people to be better parents, we need to revamp the justice system. And we also probably need to take the emphasis (at least for a short time) off of other countries and focus it more on ourselves. It's almost like the old imperialist system was able to take the emphasis off itself and its own internal problems, by "acquisitioning" resources from other countries to support its own bullshit, rather than fix itself. It's always better to BE the shining example, rather than trying to just force other countries into compliance.
__________________
I go in and I'm crisp, clean and my vocals are fucking coming out like music. - Anonymous MW student
- Autismus Terminus Finis (Root Cause/Cure of Autism Epidemic)
- Called Off My Wedding & Other Turn Tail Signs Of The American Male
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 13:15
#4
Re: There's no black or white in
@Manwhore:
I only read Atlas Shrugged but I thought it was an incredible book. She made some necessary points. She said what needed to be said. But, like any really great piece of work, people tend to stop thinking for themselves. People read Atlas Shrugged, zone out, latch onto it and zip away into some outerspace land where they are able to take her thoughts out of the context of the 21st century.
Part of the difficulty, is that most people just aren't adept at understanding and internalizing, complex theoretical information and translating it into practical, useful action, for their life. So what you get are people who don't see that she was writing, "Black and White" for a reason. She wanted to get a specific point across and she did so, in a great way.
What I liked and connected with about the quote I posted above, is the idea that, "Morality is dead". Both Ayn Rand and Saul Alinksy, would agree, correctly about this. Morality is dumb. Morality is outdated. "Morality", held up in such high esteem, for so long, is the very idea which has caused people to judge, caused people to hate, caused people to pick sides, caused people to isolate from oneanother and cast blame across the divide. "Morality" is one of the most stupid concepts I have ever come across and anyone who claims to use, "Morality", as a form of rhetoric, is trying to manipulate you. Morality is no reason to do anything. It is obselete, in my eyes. Anyone who has actually accomplished anything in life, would, most likely, give you a defintion of "Morality" that is far different than something you might expect to hear in your local church or from your nationally syndicated televangelist.
What Ayn Rand got right, is the idea that "Morality" can only be found in "Action". And, what Saul Alinksy got right, is that we have to, at times, do the "right" thing, for the "wrong" reasons. FUCK having some conceptual idea of what "right" and "wrong" is and then trying our hardest to live up to this concept. That's incredibly unproductive. Morality, as a theoretical concept, is for the birds. We have to feel our own self interest enough, that we can come to understand the true nature of our interconnectedness. When we come to the right understanding of self and other, it's no longer about "morality" or "helping others"... it stops becoming about, "Me" and "Them". The paradoxes melt away in an instant and what's left is action- Right Action.
As you pointed out, we have to learn to stop thinking about theoretical nonsense and develop the capacity to LIVE morality, not in our heads but in the reality that stands before us, each and every day. Stop thinking about "right" and "wrong" and just LIVE. Live through your actions. Live through your passion. Live the life you have imagined for yourself, starting right now. When we begin to do this, the paraxoxes dissapear, as if they never existed in the first place. There are no paradoxes. If, nothing else, that's one more thing Ayn Rand got right, for DAMN sure.
Debate over whether or not to help the poor or to become more isolated as a country or not, all stems from too much thinking and not enough living. When we begin to live out the theoretical concepts we have trapped in our heads, the potential problems sort themselves out and progress is made. Potential is achieved.
I only read Atlas Shrugged but I thought it was an incredible book. She made some necessary points. She said what needed to be said. But, like any really great piece of work, people tend to stop thinking for themselves. People read Atlas Shrugged, zone out, latch onto it and zip away into some outerspace land where they are able to take her thoughts out of the context of the 21st century.
Part of the difficulty, is that most people just aren't adept at understanding and internalizing, complex theoretical information and translating it into practical, useful action, for their life. So what you get are people who don't see that she was writing, "Black and White" for a reason. She wanted to get a specific point across and she did so, in a great way.
What I liked and connected with about the quote I posted above, is the idea that, "Morality is dead". Both Ayn Rand and Saul Alinksy, would agree, correctly about this. Morality is dumb. Morality is outdated. "Morality", held up in such high esteem, for so long, is the very idea which has caused people to judge, caused people to hate, caused people to pick sides, caused people to isolate from oneanother and cast blame across the divide. "Morality" is one of the most stupid concepts I have ever come across and anyone who claims to use, "Morality", as a form of rhetoric, is trying to manipulate you. Morality is no reason to do anything. It is obselete, in my eyes. Anyone who has actually accomplished anything in life, would, most likely, give you a defintion of "Morality" that is far different than something you might expect to hear in your local church or from your nationally syndicated televangelist.
What Ayn Rand got right, is the idea that "Morality" can only be found in "Action". And, what Saul Alinksy got right, is that we have to, at times, do the "right" thing, for the "wrong" reasons. FUCK having some conceptual idea of what "right" and "wrong" is and then trying our hardest to live up to this concept. That's incredibly unproductive. Morality, as a theoretical concept, is for the birds. We have to feel our own self interest enough, that we can come to understand the true nature of our interconnectedness. When we come to the right understanding of self and other, it's no longer about "morality" or "helping others"... it stops becoming about, "Me" and "Them". The paradoxes melt away in an instant and what's left is action- Right Action.
As you pointed out, we have to learn to stop thinking about theoretical nonsense and develop the capacity to LIVE morality, not in our heads but in the reality that stands before us, each and every day. Stop thinking about "right" and "wrong" and just LIVE. Live through your actions. Live through your passion. Live the life you have imagined for yourself, starting right now. When we begin to do this, the paraxoxes dissapear, as if they never existed in the first place. There are no paradoxes. If, nothing else, that's one more thing Ayn Rand got right, for DAMN sure.
Debate over whether or not to help the poor or to become more isolated as a country or not, all stems from too much thinking and not enough living. When we begin to live out the theoretical concepts we have trapped in our heads, the potential problems sort themselves out and progress is made. Potential is achieved.
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 17:52
#5
Re: There's no black or white in
Interesting and valid points made all around. BG - what you said about the paradoxes melting away is really cool, never really heard that idea painted in that way before. A lot of those debates and problems stem from ivory tower decision makers who do shit without reality in mind. Whereas if they took action based in reality and failed, they could fix it instead of trying to solve problems which don't really exist anyways. Like needing to regulate industries which only need regulation because of other shitty regulations.
Manwhore - yeah I agree with a lot of what you said and a lot of good can be done through those programs. My problem with things like universal health care and other socialist programs is the function of force needed to run them. If I don't pay taxes I go to jail. They are literally robbing me with the threat of imprisonment instead of a knife. Where did the government get the idea it needs to spread funds and private charities aren't up to the task? Ayn rand is spot on about economics. She has the same views as Milton Friedman and that man is my hero. Man has never lost a debate.
Manwhore - yeah I agree with a lot of what you said and a lot of good can be done through those programs. My problem with things like universal health care and other socialist programs is the function of force needed to run them. If I don't pay taxes I go to jail. They are literally robbing me with the threat of imprisonment instead of a knife. Where did the government get the idea it needs to spread funds and private charities aren't up to the task? Ayn rand is spot on about economics. She has the same views as Milton Friedman and that man is my hero. Man has never lost a debate.
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 22:15
#6
Re: There's no black or white in
@icewahine:
I'm pretty disgusted with people who aren't down with giving back so you're treading on thin ice. You cannot count on charities and private funds obviously. The pharmaceutical companies have enslaved a lot of America, medicine is big business, this is simply a way of taking some of the control away from them. It's either the government that has mostly visible regulations, or some REALLY shitty corporations doing their damndest to just make a buck and keep their amoral investors happy.
I'm pretty disgusted with people who aren't down with giving back so you're treading on thin ice. You cannot count on charities and private funds obviously. The pharmaceutical companies have enslaved a lot of America, medicine is big business, this is simply a way of taking some of the control away from them. It's either the government that has mostly visible regulations, or some REALLY shitty corporations doing their damndest to just make a buck and keep their amoral investors happy.
__________________
I go in and I'm crisp, clean and my vocals are fucking coming out like music. - Anonymous MW student
- Autismus Terminus Finis (Root Cause/Cure of Autism Epidemic)
- Called Off My Wedding & Other Turn Tail Signs Of The American Male
Wed, 09/19/2012 - 23:51
#7
Re: There's no black or white in
Giving back is the shit. Never said anything was wrong with that.
K I think it's really freaking obvious individuals are better equipped to take care of their "selfish" needs better than the government right. (if not YouTube Milton friedmans 4 ways to spend money.) it's pretty clear the most effective way to spend money is on yourself because your cautious of how much you spend and what you get for that amount.
The biggest discrepancy is whether these same individuals are able to take care of societies "selfless" needs. Charity, helping the homeless, helping the poor, etc.
Americans give 500 billion voluntarily every year to charities. That's FIVE times the amount the government spends on welfare annually.
I'm such a huge fan of the way America was run back in the day. The only reason government Was around for the first 200 years was to organize more than anything else. How else were you supposed to do shit before phones existed? It was a fairly big debate whether common folk should be allowed to vote simply because news travelled so slowly. Now though a lot of government function is trash. Raise your hand if you donated a few bucks to Haiti or Japan through the red cross with a SIMPLE SMS MESSAGE! Gawd damn that makes me go buck!
The majority of government function isn't needed anymore. We can do better. Manwhore if you were my neighbour growing up an needed some food stamps and were a little short on your rent, and I could see you had some drive to work/join the military/work on pickup/start your own buisnesses and not spend my money on weed or a big ass tv then I'd gladly spot you some cash. And that's coming from me now who is often broke but not in the reds. If I didn't have to pay taxes id be able to give some dough to the neighbour on the other side who is hustling hard on starting a buisness but is a little short on cash that week. Cause I would be literally making 50% more than I am now. Actually I think after everything taxes are 51% of income up here.
K I think it's really freaking obvious individuals are better equipped to take care of their "selfish" needs better than the government right. (if not YouTube Milton friedmans 4 ways to spend money.) it's pretty clear the most effective way to spend money is on yourself because your cautious of how much you spend and what you get for that amount.
The biggest discrepancy is whether these same individuals are able to take care of societies "selfless" needs. Charity, helping the homeless, helping the poor, etc.
Americans give 500 billion voluntarily every year to charities. That's FIVE times the amount the government spends on welfare annually.
I'm such a huge fan of the way America was run back in the day. The only reason government Was around for the first 200 years was to organize more than anything else. How else were you supposed to do shit before phones existed? It was a fairly big debate whether common folk should be allowed to vote simply because news travelled so slowly. Now though a lot of government function is trash. Raise your hand if you donated a few bucks to Haiti or Japan through the red cross with a SIMPLE SMS MESSAGE! Gawd damn that makes me go buck!
The majority of government function isn't needed anymore. We can do better. Manwhore if you were my neighbour growing up an needed some food stamps and were a little short on your rent, and I could see you had some drive to work/join the military/work on pickup/start your own buisnesses and not spend my money on weed or a big ass tv then I'd gladly spot you some cash. And that's coming from me now who is often broke but not in the reds. If I didn't have to pay taxes id be able to give some dough to the neighbour on the other side who is hustling hard on starting a buisness but is a little short on cash that week. Cause I would be literally making 50% more than I am now. Actually I think after everything taxes are 51% of income up here.
Thu, 09/20/2012 - 09:17
#8
Yes I totally get that, and
Yes I totally get that, and if we were smaller communities we'd definitely be able to. But even then, the vast majority of people do nothing for their neighbor. At all. It's always just a few that shoulder the burden of helping out those less fortunate. What I'm saying is the government is at least attempting to take care of people in some way, even if it's retarded. It's the closest thing we've got.
I'm going to start community outreach programs when I'm a little older that teach young kids how to fix cars, steel-working, programming, technical trades, etc. I want to make CLEAR paths for people to follow make it. There's too much intrinsically holding people back. 80% of the people that find themselves in my same situation will NEVER make it. It's not their fault. We can do better
I'm going to start community outreach programs when I'm a little older that teach young kids how to fix cars, steel-working, programming, technical trades, etc. I want to make CLEAR paths for people to follow make it. There's too much intrinsically holding people back. 80% of the people that find themselves in my same situation will NEVER make it. It's not their fault. We can do better
__________________
I go in and I'm crisp, clean and my vocals are fucking coming out like music. - Anonymous MW student
- Autismus Terminus Finis (Root Cause/Cure of Autism Epidemic)
- Called Off My Wedding & Other Turn Tail Signs Of The American Male
Fri, 09/21/2012 - 09:33
#9
Re: Yes I totally get that, and
@Manwhore: ^ Fucking yes. And he is not trying to justify their actions. There's legit shit holding kids back. My friend got coerced into joining a gang in LA. Like just straight jumped in, shoot you on point if you dont ride with us. Now hes in jail for life. Most kids in my neighborhood were lucky to even graduate highschool. I grew up next to capn hooks place from cc, to give you an idea manwhore. On the other side though - the much shitter side of town lol. 1200 freshmen went in yearly at my high school, 600 graduated. Pregnant, cholos, dead, became drug dealers, work, or dropped out. Thats what became of those 600 who didnt make it out of high school.