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Joined: 01/31/2012

So included in manwhore's monthly membership fees are a few cool videos. One of the videos is about shit tests and explains this concept of how shit tests are actually real, and how to navigate them properly, especially when trying to develop relationships with women. Quite frankly, it is a quality video that is both broad and specific at the same time. Meaning, depending on where you are at, you could rewatch that video months apart and take away new lessons each time. 

Here is a link for everyone's convenience: http://mwdatingcoach.org/main-page/shit-tests-are-real/ (Reminder: You need to be a subscribed to the monthly membership to see the video!)

Thoughts:

The video mentions frameThe video itself does not dive into frame too deeply because in order to explain frame properly would require its own video(s). But I figured I'd chime in on my thoughts on frame and how it relates to shit tests, which we know is that holding frame is fundamental to passing shit tests. 

Specifically, the video touches on this idea of moving away from tactics to solving shit tests with women, because they are genuine issues for women. This hit home for me particularly because I have found it easier to hold my frame when using "tactics" like self amusement rather  than solving the issue with her. I think this is particularly problematic when you start moving deeper into the relationship because you can't just self amuse your way out of everything, man. Any woman worth her damn salt is gonna walk out on your ass if she's laying down some serious shit that bothers her in the form of a shit test and you're just being a self amusing jackass lol. As for why I think I struggle to hold my frame when trying to solve a shit test is because it is easier to hold frame when I am not putting my personality 100% on the line. I can hide behind this idea that self amusement is a tactic and not ME. Furthermore, solving the problem seems inherently trickier because you're acknowledging her interests in the shit test and that what she says holds value to you, and I think this trips people up. (I know it trips me up sometimes!) 

TL; DR: Frame seems harder to hold when you're solving shit tests, but if you can do it right, seems like a more effective way of passing shit tests because your girl will feel heard, understood, and see that you handled the test like a compassionate man.

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Joined: 01/18/2012
Awesome. Thanks for this

Awesome. Thanks for this

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I go in and I'm crisp, clean and my vocals are fucking coming out like music. - Anonymous MW student

- Autismus Terminus Finis (Root Cause/Cure of Autism Epidemic)

- Called Off My Wedding & Other Turn Tail Signs Of The American Male

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Joined: 02/13/2017
A shit test is a congruence

A shit test is a congruence test, she's testing to see if you are who you say you are.

In the early part it's because you're being a sexual threat, and she's not immediately with it; you won't get shit tested if you're the beta supplicating nice guy, she's happy to let you play yourself (usually).

It's "shitty" when you are in the "fake it till you make it" phase. You're trying to be alpha, put sex on the table and not pay the boyfriend price and she's testing the goods before she buys. It's a legitimate test, but it's shitty because you might fail lol

It's comfortable when you have a strong frame and deep experience with the issue at hand and/or women in general. You're comfident what you have is of value, you've heard it all before, and now you're just guiding her to sex. This is also why some experienced players say they initiate shit tests, just so they can pass them (or so I've heard). A second possibility is that as you fuck more and more women on your terms, you will unconsciously believe so strongly that it is normal and expected that she's with it, so she'll sense that and not test you in that way.

As far as the later situations manwhore talks about in the video, where "I'm sorry babe, I fucked up" may be appropriate, that's probably after you're already in comfort with the girl or when you've already had sex. To me, shit tests are more the beginning sort of things like "How tall are you?", or more so "attraction tests' or "in-group" tests that would occur when she's deciding if you're sex worthy or not. He says in there "as you move on, more valid and deeper relationships" etc. and that's to me a "comfort test" if you were going to give it a name. And that as you get better and better with women this will be more the way you deal with them, which again points to that second idea that as you get the experience of fucking lots and lots of women you'll tend to get less "value shit tests" from girls except if they are very immature or emotionally unstable (which he mentions in anothe part).

Quick and easy way to look at it: For what you're discussing substitue out "shit test" for "comfort test" and think of "shit test" as more a "value test" or "congruence test".

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Joined: 01/31/2012
MervThePerv wrote: A shit

MervThePerv wrote:
A shit test is a congruence test, she's testing to see if you are who you say you are.

In the early part it's because you're being a sexual threat, and she's not immediately with it; you won't get shit tested if you're the beta supplicating nice guy, she's happy to let you play yourself (usually).

It's "shitty" when you are in the "fake it till you make it" phase. You're trying to be alpha, put sex on the table and not pay the boyfriend price and she's testing the goods before she buys. It's a legitimate test, but it's shitty because you might fail lol

It's comfortable when you have a strong frame and deep experience with the issue at hand and/or women in general. You're comfident what you have is of value, you've heard it all before, and now you're just guiding her to sex. This is also why some experienced players say they initiate shit tests, just so they can pass them (or so I've heard). A second possibility is that as you fuck more and more women on your terms, you will unconsciously believe so strongly that it is normal and expected that she's with it, so she'll sense that and not test you in that way.

As far as the later situations manwhore talks about in the video, where "I'm sorry babe, I fucked up" may be appropriate, that's probably after you're already in comfort with the girl or when you've already had sex. To me, shit tests are more the beginning sort of things like "How tall are you?", or more so "attraction tests' or "in-group" tests that would occur when she's deciding if you're sex worthy or not. He says in there "as you move on, more valid and deeper relationships" etc. and that's to me a "comfort test" if you were going to give it a name. And that as you get better and better with women this will be more the way you deal with them, which again points to that second idea that as you get the experience of fucking lots and lots of women you'll tend to get less "value shit tests" from girls except if they are very immature or emotionally unstable (which he mentions in anothe part).

Quick and easy way to look at it: For what you're discussing substitue out "shit test" for "comfort test" and think of "shit test" as more a "value test" or "congruence test".

Yeah, I get the general sentiment and agree with what you're saying. And how do you personally handle these comfort tests? 

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Joined: 02/13/2017
Aequitas wrote: Yeah, I get

Aequitas wrote:
Yeah, I get the general sentiment and agree with what you're saying. And how do you personally handle these comfort tests? 

Pretty much how Manwhore described it, take them seriously. Listen to her and address her concerns. Now you're talking about "relationship game" essentially so you get into a host of things regarding your beliefs about man to women relationship, emotional intelligence, your interest in her as a longer term prospect and how often you want to see her / how invested you want to be in your collective future; I'm much more likely to be going deep with a girl psychologically and helping her sort out her issues if we're going to be seeing each other for months or for years. I'm much more likely to address underlying patterns of communication and behavior between us that lead to perpetual fights if I'm going to be seeing her again and again, as opposed to resolving it superficially.

Does that answer it well enough? Have you read "The Power of Now" for instance, for emotional intelligence? That among other resources.

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Joined: 01/31/2012
MervThePerv wrote:Aequitas

MervThePerv wrote:
Aequitas wrote:
Yeah, I get the general sentiment and agree with what you're saying. And how do you personally handle these comfort tests? 

Pretty much how Manwhore described it, take them seriously. Listen to her and address her concerns. Now you're talking about "relationship game" essentially so you get into a host of things regarding your beliefs about man to women relationship, emotional intelligence, your interest in her as a longer term prospect and how often you want to see her / how invested you want to be in your collective future; I'm much more likely to be going deep with a girl psychologically and helping her sort out her issues if we're going to be seeing each other for months or for years. I'm much more likely to address underlying patterns of communication and behavior between us that lead to perpetual fights if I'm going to be seeing her again and again, as opposed to resolving it superficially.

Does that answer it well enough? Have you read "The Power of Now" for instance, for emotional intelligence? That among other resources.

That answers my question. I read it a few years ago - have started re-reading it yesterday and today. The problem I'm noticing is when I'm diving deeper into a relationship with a woman, I am becoming reactive in certain instances. Like I had been meditating now more frequently and trying to just observe my emotions and slowly seeing them dissipate or return with lesser frequency. Afterwards, I decided to look at a conversation that I mentioned in a different thread and it was kinda eye opening because I had a different take on what was going on. Seems like I completely whiffed on how to handle the situation haha.

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Joined: 02/13/2017
Yeah, that'll happen. You'll

Yeah, that'll happen.

You'll learn new ways to look at your patterns of thought and behavior and looking back you'll be surprised you ever acted like you did; that's a sign of progress.

I also recommend mixing eastern and western psychology, so from the western front the aptly named "Emotional Intelligence" would be a good start as well as "Emotions Revealed".

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Joined: 01/31/2012
MervThePerv wrote: Yeah,

MervThePerv wrote:
Yeah, that'll happen.

You'll learn new ways to look at your patterns of thought and behavior and looking back you'll be surprised you ever acted like you did; that's a sign of progress.

I also recommend mixing eastern and western psychology, so from the western front the aptly named "Emotional Intelligence" would be a good start as well as "Emotions Revealed".

Tight. I'll definitely give those a read. 

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Joined: 01/18/2012
MervThePerv wrote: A shit

MervThePerv wrote:
A shit test is a congruence test, she's testing to see if you are who you say you are.

In the early part it's because you're being a sexual threat, and she's not immediately with it; you won't get shit tested if you're the beta supplicating nice guy, she's happy to let you play yourself (usually).

It's "shitty" when you are in the "fake it till you make it" phase. You're trying to be alpha, put sex on the table and not pay the boyfriend price and she's testing the goods before she buys. It's a legitimate test, but it's shitty because you might fail lol

It's comfortable when you have a strong frame and deep experience with the issue at hand and/or women in general. You're comfident what you have is of value, you've heard it all before, and now you're just guiding her to sex. This is also why some experienced players say they initiate shit tests, just so they can pass them (or so I've heard). A second possibility is that as you fuck more and more women on your terms, you will unconsciously believe so strongly that it is normal and expected that she's with it, so she'll sense that and not test you in that way.

As far as the later situations manwhore talks about in the video, where "I'm sorry babe, I fucked up" may be appropriate, that's probably after you're already in comfort with the girl or when you've already had sex. To me, shit tests are more the beginning sort of things like "How tall are you?", or more so "attraction tests' or "in-group" tests that would occur when she's deciding if you're sex worthy or not. He says in there "as you move on, more valid and deeper relationships" etc. and that's to me a "comfort test" if you were going to give it a name. And that as you get better and better with women this will be more the way you deal with them, which again points to that second idea that as you get the experience of fucking lots and lots of women you'll tend to get less "value shit tests" from girls except if they are very immature or emotionally unstable (which he mentions in anothe part).

Quick and easy way to look at it: For what you're discussing substitue out "shit test" for "comfort test" and think of "shit test" as more a "value test" or "congruence test".

Yes everyone here can go look up the standard MM textbook definition of "shit test".  Here I am trying to make a video that does just the opposite of that and you go and rename it after the next phase in Mystery Method? Lol. Clearly Aequitas understands the attempt to "humanize" something that's been up to this point seen as such an adversarial point between men and women in this community. That's the point of the video. MM is known for its one-sided, misogynistic even helpless take on situations that might only require a guy taking off the MM training wheels and actually seeing the situation correctly instead of hiding behind game. Case in point Mystery himself is an emotional basketcase fuckboy.

Nothing new was added here except for some super sweet MM mental masturbation. 

__________________

I go in and I'm crisp, clean and my vocals are fucking coming out like music. - Anonymous MW student

- Autismus Terminus Finis (Root Cause/Cure of Autism Epidemic)

- Called Off My Wedding & Other Turn Tail Signs Of The American Male

Tap Or Click For Personal Coaching Information

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Joined: 02/13/2017
Manwhore wrote: Yes everyone

Manwhore wrote:
Yes everyone here can go look up the standard MM textbook definition of "shit test".  Here I am trying to make a video that does just the opposite of that and you go and rename it after the next phase in Mystery Method? Lol.

Perhaps I was unclear. I'm not sure the procedure for sighting references other than you on the "Manwhore Forum".

I didn't make that term up, I read it somewhere.

Yes it would be the idea that the girl needs "comfort" in the MM sense. Appologizing, being sweet, all the things you explained in the video.

I was making the distinction that it is inherrently confusing to call it a "shit test" when the girl is acting shitty when you're already further along in your relationship with her. Hence why you say to act differently than say if you just met her, most likely. The two of you are in a more cooperative space, which is why you're addressing her concerns outright.

Your example of "baby I'm sorry", would you say that to a girl you met 30 seconds ago? Possibly, but I think it'd be a strange situation, mostly likely after doing something wildly uncalibrated.

Manwhore wrote:

Clearly Aequitas understands the attempt to "humanize" something that's been up to this point seen as such an adversarial point between men and women in this community.

I'm not trying to step on your toes here. I'm just pointing out the situation you seem to describe has been called a comfort test somewhere else and a similar response to what you said here was proposed. If anything it adds credibility because other advanced guys agree.

Manwhore wrote:
That's the point of the video. MM is known for its one-sided, misogynistic even helpless take on situations that might only require a guy taking off the MM training wheels and actually seeing the situation correctly instead of hiding behind game.

I'm not adovacating anyone tie themselves to any one method. And I try to filter out misogyny, and other cognitive biases, from whatever source I learn from or when I share it.

Manwhore wrote:
Case in point Mystery himself is an emotional basketcase fuckboy.

Endless new pussy won't fill the hole in your heart! lol

Manwhore wrote:

Nothing new was added here except for some super sweet MM mental masturbation.

I'd like to think otherwise but you're entitled to your opinion.

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Joined: 01/31/2012
MervThePerv wrote:Manwhore

MervThePerv wrote:
Manwhore wrote:
Yes everyone here can go look up the standard MM textbook definition of "shit test".  Here I am trying to make a video that does just the opposite of that and you go and rename it after the next phase in Mystery Method? Lol.

Perhaps I was unclear. I'm not sure the procedure for sighting references other than you on the "Manwhore Forum".

I didn't make that term up, I read it somewhere.

Yes it would be the idea that the girl needs "comfort" in the MM sense. Appologizing, being sweet, all the things you explained in the video.

I was making the distinction that it is inherrently confusing to call it a "shit test" when the girl is acting shitty when you're already further along in your relationship with her. Hence why you say to act differently than say if you just met her, most likely. The two of you are in a more cooperative space, which is why you're addressing her concerns outright.

Your example of "baby I'm sorry", would you say that to a girl you met 30 seconds ago? Possibly, but I think it'd be a strange situation, mostly likely after doing something wildly uncalibrated.

Manwhore wrote:

Clearly Aequitas understands the attempt to "humanize" something that's been up to this point seen as such an adversarial point between men and women in this community.

I'm not trying to step on your toes here. I'm just pointing out the situation you seem to describe has been called a comfort test somewhere else and a similar response to what you said here was proposed. If anything it adds credibility because other advanced guys agree.

Manwhore wrote:
That's the point of the video. MM is known for its one-sided, misogynistic even helpless take on situations that might only require a guy taking off the MM training wheels and actually seeing the situation correctly instead of hiding behind game.

I'm not adovacating anyone tie themselves to any one method. And I try to filter out misogyny, and other cognitive biases, from whatever source I learn from or when I share it.

Manwhore wrote:
Case in point Mystery himself is an emotional basketcase fuckboy.

Endless new pussy won't fill the hole in your heart! lol

Manwhore wrote:

Nothing new was added here except for some super sweet MM mental masturbation.

I'd like to think otherwise but you're entitled to your opinion.

I mean the whole point of the video is that all tests are real. I've gone down the route of just being a complete dick, but I've also definitely apologized to girls I just met and it was not weird at all dude. I think a lot of it ties back to my ORIGINAL POST here in that frame / your verbal skills / your abliity to read the situation are crucial for solving any test. He's not suggesting some bimodal approach of being aloof or apologizing, but rather provides principles tied to a goal to guide an individual in assessing how to more effectively pass the test, which is done in part by correcting the misconception. 

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Aequitas wrote:I mean the

Aequitas wrote:
I mean the whole point of the video is that all tests are real.

Oh.

I didn't realize you viewed that as the salient point.

How about:

"Everything she says or does can be interpreted as information on how to seducer her, as feedback. And everything you believe about her and girls in general ahead of time can be intepreted as a mental model to predict the course of seduction, as a map to guiding your penis to the promised land."

That paradigm includes the "all tests are real" and in fact doesn't concern itself with real vs. fake as much as it does effective vs. ineffective action based on the information you are getting and the beliefs you hold.

Then only real you have to determine is if she's "really" doing it lol.

Aequitas wrote:

I've gone down the route of just being a complete dick, but I've also definitely apologized to girls I just met and it was not weird at all dude.

I'd like to hear an example of this when it wasn't bad game.

My initial thought would be going hyper sexual and then appolgizing for making her feel uncomfortable but not for your intent or interest:

You: "Wow girl, you look amazing, I want to bend you over this table and spank that fine ass of yours."

Her: "Ew, you're disgusting."

You (doing your best impression from the video): "Aww, I'm sorry baby... It's just you're looking so good I got carried away with myself. Can we start over? My name's Aequitas."

So now you've established a "Man to woman frame" and certainly aren't "hiding your dick/intent" so you're off to decent start there, you didn't back down so you showed confidence, and you appolized when she seemed pissed so you showed empathy and social intelligence.

But I'll propose that there are ways to accomplish all of that that don't have a high risk of blowing you out (the way saying that right away might), put you strongly on the radar of everyone else around (such as AMOGs and cockblocks), put pressure on her to reject you to maintain her image even if she was intiatially with it (such as giving you a strong approach invitation / indicating interest via body language).

I look forward to hearing the exact situation(s) you alluded to.

Aequitas wrote:
I think a lot of it ties back to my ORIGINAL POST here in that frame / your verbal skills / your abliity to read the situation are crucial for solving any test.

Have a clear goal for yourself and understanding of the situation (frame). Have the verbal tools to affect the outcome in the moment. Have social intelligence. Resond to what she gives you.

I agree with all that, it's about as general a statement as you can make on the matter so I don't know what there is not to agree with.

Aequitas wrote:
He's not suggesting some bimodal approach of being aloof or apologizing, but rather provides principles tied to a goal to guide an individual in assessing how to more effectively pass the test, which is done in part by correcting the misconception.

Your misconception is that I see a bimodal approach of aloof vs. apologizing and not simply two situations of "needing value" or "needing comfort". If you go back and read my original post I was describing the girl's needs as comfort vs. value, not the approaches as appologize vs. be aloof. I also said that as you gain experience, you'll likely have less "needing value" situations, so maybe that's partially where the misunderstanding comes from, I don't know. Or possibly you see "adding comfort" or "adding (or simply maintaining) value" as bimodal approaches, but I'd say there are many ways to do both, for instance in the video he gives two ways to add or maintain value, being aloof and actually engaging.

Now as far as what he does, he suggests two approaches in the video, watch it again and see.

He fits the first situation (needing comfort) into the general approach he says is best for all shit tests (where he doesn't make my distinction).

He doesn't create the nuance of calling the situation he approaches in the second way a "Comfort test" a.k.a. when he's adding comfort via an engageed appology and empathy, to distinguish it from the first situation he approaches by adding value via the standard (beginner-intermediate) shit test response of being aloof and later saying he could also engage with it, dismantle it, reframe it (the intermediate-advanced way), and thus calling it as I do a "Value test" or "value shit test" or just leaving it as "shit test".

He advises this "engage, dismantle, reframe" for both the situations ultimately, if you have the skills for it, but he does detail different situations which have a different way of engaging with a.k.a. the girl you just met likely doesn't need you to comfort her and appologize, the girl you are already fucking doesn't need you to be higher value and reframe why you're awesome.

This is why the verbal training with Manwhore helps, because you'll have a skillset that is applicable to a wide variety of situations.

I also did just watch it again:

"I was talking to student, he presents to me this situation with a girl who's really into him. They slept together." and proceeds to explain the second approach (add comfort)

Also "Even if you just walked up to a girl and she shit tests you or is being bratty or whatnot, that's also genuine, because they're trying to figure out what kind of guy you are." and proceeds to explain the first (legitimate, working, but beginner-intermediate) approach (add value / act higher value (aloof, be dismissive, change the subject, get them laughing)).

And then goes on to explain generally "As your people skills develop and your verbal skills develop" and explains both addressing a shit test directly instead of dismissively, which requires more wit and experience, as well as applogizing when he is geuinely wrong, in a way that he maintains his high masculine value and shows empathy. That approach, actually engaging with a shit test (or a comfort test), dismantling it, and adjusting the frame to what you want is the best overall method if you are advanced enough to pull it off. - If you want to pull this off I suggest signing up for the training and learning the verbal drills, they help.

Finally "As your relationships with women become deeper, you need to start seeing their issues as valid." Actually engage with them, add comfort. As opposed to when it is superfical, like when you just met, and you may, if you're beginner-intermediate, treat their issues as invalid by being aloof, or, if you're advanced enough, dismantle their bull-shit test, reframe and have a better interaction than if you merely ignored it.

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lol. are you in law school or

lol. are you in law school or a practicing attorney? You're so type A about this.

Currently have a pending deadline - sorta just skimmed. Posting as a reminder to read thoroughly through your post tomorrow. 

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Joined: 03/27/2013
Lol! I am not sure if all you

Lol! I am not sure if all you peeps are arguing here or not but some good information is definitely being fleshed out.

Also, I think Merv may be some PUA spambot quantum super-computer that is deciphering through thousands of RSD threads and making impressive cognitive leaps at lighting fast processing rates. The A.I has taken over!...Just kidding brotha, I liked that last post.

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MervThePerv wrote: Aequitas

MervThePerv wrote:
Aequitas wrote:
I mean the whole point of the video is that all tests are real.

Oh.

I didn't realize you viewed that as the salient point.

How about:

"Everything she says or does can be interpreted as information on how to seducer her, as feedback. And everything you believe about her and girls in general ahead of time can be intepreted as a mental model to predict the course of seduction, as a map to guiding your penis to the promised land."

That paradigm includes the "all tests are real" and in fact doesn't concern itself with real vs. fake as much as it does effective vs. ineffective action based on the information you are getting and the beliefs you hold.

Then only real you have to determine is if she's "really" doing it lol.

Aequitas wrote:

I've gone down the route of just being a complete dick, but I've also definitely apologized to girls I just met and it was not weird at all dude.

I'd like to hear an example of this when it wasn't bad game.

My initial thought would be going hyper sexual and then appolgizing for making her feel uncomfortable but not for your intent or interest:

You: "Wow girl, you look amazing, I want to bend you over this table and spank that fine ass of yours."

Her: "Ew, you're disgusting."

You (doing your best impression from the video): "Aww, I'm sorry baby... It's just you're looking so good I got carried away with myself. Can we start over? My name's Aequitas."

So now you've established a "Man to woman frame" and certainly aren't "hiding your dick/intent" so you're off to decent start there, you didn't back down so you showed confidence, and you appolized when she seemed pissed so you showed empathy and social intelligence.

But I'll propose that there are ways to accomplish all of that that don't have a high risk of blowing you out (the way saying that right away might), put you strongly on the radar of everyone else around (such as AMOGs and cockblocks), put pressure on her to reject you to maintain her image even if she was intiatially with it (such as giving you a strong approach invitation / indicating interest via body language).

I look forward to hearing the exact situation(s) you alluded to.

Aequitas wrote:
I think a lot of it ties back to my ORIGINAL POST here in that frame / your verbal skills / your abliity to read the situation are crucial for solving any test.

Have a clear goal for yourself and understanding of the situation (frame). Have the verbal tools to affect the outcome in the moment. Have social intelligence. Resond to what she gives you.

I agree with all that, it's about as general a statement as you can make on the matter so I don't know what there is not to agree with.

Aequitas wrote:
He's not suggesting some bimodal approach of being aloof or apologizing, but rather provides principles tied to a goal to guide an individual in assessing how to more effectively pass the test, which is done in part by correcting the misconception.

Your misconception is that I see a bimodal approach of aloof vs. apologizing and not simply two situations of "needing value" or "needing comfort". If you go back and read my original post I was describing the girl's needs as comfort vs. value, not the approaches as appologize vs. be aloof. I also said that as you gain experience, you'll likely have less "needing value" situations, so maybe that's partially where the misunderstanding comes from, I don't know. Or possibly you see "adding comfort" or "adding (or simply maintaining) value" as bimodal approaches, but I'd say there are many ways to do both, for instance in the video he gives two ways to add or maintain value, being aloof and actually engaging.

Now as far as what he does, he suggests two approaches in the video, watch it again and see.

He fits the first situation (needing comfort) into the general approach he says is best for all shit tests (where he doesn't make my distinction).

He doesn't create the nuance of calling the situation he approaches in the second way a "Comfort test" a.k.a. when he's adding comfort via an engageed appology and empathy, to distinguish it from the first situation he approaches by adding value via the standard (beginner-intermediate) shit test response of being aloof and later saying he could also engage with it, dismantle it, reframe it (the intermediate-advanced way), and thus calling it as I do a "Value test" or "value shit test" or just leaving it as "shit test".

He advises this "engage, dismantle, reframe" for both the situations ultimately, if you have the skills for it, but he does detail different situations which have a different way of engaging with a.k.a. the girl you just met likely doesn't need you to comfort her and appologize, the girl you are already fucking doesn't need you to be higher value and reframe why you're awesome.

This is why the verbal training with Manwhore helps, because you'll have a skillset that is applicable to a wide variety of situations.

I also did just watch it again:

"I was talking to student, he presents to me this situation with a girl who's really into him. They slept together." and proceeds to explain the second approach (add comfort)

Also "Even if you just walked up to a girl and she shit tests you or is being bratty or whatnot, that's also genuine, because they're trying to figure out what kind of guy you are." and proceeds to explain the first (legitimate, working, but beginner-intermediate) approach (add value / act higher value (aloof, be dismissive, change the subject, get them laughing)).

And then goes on to explain generally "As your people skills develop and your verbal skills develop" and explains both addressing a shit test directly instead of dismissively, which requires more wit and experience, as well as applogizing when he is geuinely wrong, in a way that he maintains his high masculine value and shows empathy. That approach, actually engaging with a shit test (or a comfort test), dismantling it, and adjusting the frame to what you want is the best overall method if you are advanced enough to pull it off. - If you want to pull this off I suggest signing up for the training and learning the verbal drills, they help.

Finally "As your relationships with women become deeper, you need to start seeing their issues as valid." Actually engage with them, add comfort. As opposed to when it is superfical, like when you just met, and you may, if you're beginner-intermediate, treat their issues as invalid by being aloof, or, if you're advanced enough, dismantle their bull-shit test, reframe and have a better interaction than if you merely ignored it.

Honestly, I'm crunching for time but I really want to give you an answer: 

First and foremost, the biggest problem is not necessarily content itself that you're providing, but rather your whole view when applying the content. You have become so disconnected and have lost the human element part of game. This is precisely what I covered in my OP - which is you're hiding behind a tactic. (i.e If deeper in the relationship, then provide comfort.) You seem to be viewing women as objects as opposed to trying to connect with them and solve the situation WITH  them. I cannot stress how toxic that is even if it provides short term gains. This isn't a math equation dude, women are people who genuinely are feeling a certain way. 

Secondly, but related, is because of your formulaic view where you think you can plug and chug responses is that this is literally NOT how shit tests work and is in part why the whole Attraction - Comfort - Seduction or whatever model of MM is flawed. These things are not discrete stages, but are rather FLUID. This is literally how insta-pulls occur and while that isn't the point, it does highlight the same fundamental flaw. Shit tests are the same with women - things OSCILLATE back and forth and requires one to be very in touch with where things are in that MOMENT in time. Things can change minute by minute, hell even second by second sometimes, man. The formulaic approach is too obtuse and not in line with how this plays out in real life. I am also not trying to shit on you either man, I know that this all comes from a good place from you. You're clearly very intelligent and obviously have a good grasp of the theory, but this is where I think you are falling short in your explanation.

As for me apologizing to a chick? I'm not quite sure how that is so unbelievable lol. Sometimes I'll just tease her too hard, sometimes I come in too hot, up in her grill and i notice she's definitely into it but it was just a lot for her to handle in that moment and I just take a step back, give her some space, laugh and say "haha i'm sorry - i didn't mean to freak you out."  She'll usually laugh as well because she saw that I was able to recognize in real time that I made her slightly uncomfortable. Like dude - lol there is NOTHING wrong with apologizing. Sometimes girls respond in a way that was just somewhat unusual and unexpected, which could've occurred for a variety of reasons. What's real important in that scenario is that you're at ease with the situation, keeping it cool, and moving forward like it isn't a big deal. 

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Meow wrote: Lol! I am not

Meow wrote:
Lol! I am not sure if all you peeps are arguing here or not but some good information is definitely being fleshed out.

Also, I think Merv may be some PUA spambot quantum super-computer that is deciphering through thousands of RSD threads and making impressive cognitive leaps at lighting fast processing rates. The A.I has taken over!...Just kidding brotha, I liked that last post.

Lol! I'll take that as a compliment!

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Aequitas wrote: Honestly, I'm

Aequitas wrote:
Honestly, I'm crunching for time but I really want to give you an answer: 

First and foremost, the biggest problem is not necessarily content itself that you're providing, but rather your whole view when applying the content. You have become so disconnected and have lost the human element part of game. This is precisely what I covered in my OP - which is you're hiding behind a tactic. (i.e If deeper in the relationship, then provide comfort.) You seem to be viewing women as objects as opposed to trying to connect with them and solve the situation WITH  them. I cannot stress how toxic that is even if it provides short term gains. This isn't a math equation dude, women are people who genuinely are feeling a certain way.

We're on a forum discussing theoretical game. Hence "analysis". You can discuss the content with me and we can learn. However this was a degradation to you making a character attack to avoid dealing with my content (an "ad hominem logical fallacy"), in which case we're not aruging, we're fighting. Or, more accurately, you are. I don't fight people on the internet (or in real life, usually). And no, I don't act like a robot in set lol. But I can see why if you took my analysis and assumed that was how I interacted with a woman I wanted to have sexy time with, it would be a problem!

Aequitas wrote:

Secondly, but related, is because of your formulaic view where you think you can plug and chug responses is that this is literally NOT how shit tests work and is in part why the whole Attraction - Comfort - Seduction or whatever model of MM is flawed. These things are not discrete stages, but are rather FLUID.

Have you read MM? He says you move into the stages fluidly, and purposely at times. Also, if a girl tries to go backwords, i.e. go back to attraction from comfort, say by ball busting you, you punish her. This is also immature behavior and what Manwhore alluded to in his video speficially about "girl who shit tests you after she already knows you / is hooking up with you". So that fits perfectly. Read the source material before you bash it.

Aequitas wrote:

This is literally how insta-pulls occur and while that isn't the point, it does highlight the same fundamental flaw.

You mean going from A-C-S quickly? Or skiping comfort because the girl feels safe fucking a stranger already before she even met you? Or blasting through attraction because she already thinks your hot physically? I really don't think you understand how MM applies to this situation, it fits it just fine.

Unless you are referring to his talk about "fool's mate" happening in less than 7 hours, but then again, MM was designed to get girlfriends not a random hookup, and I'll ask you, how many of these insta-pulls are with 9's and 10's who are intelligent and emotionally stable, I'd hazard very few. And of them, if you don't spend the post sex time connecting with them in comfort (moving back to it AFTER seduction, but on your terms), then how many of them to you convert to girlfriends?

Fucking a grotty 6 who gives you the eye when you're a male 8, that's cool, but is that game or getting laid / hooking up? (if you're an 8 and she's a 6, you can skip attraction altogether generally and move right into comfort or seduction depending on the girl, just to connect the dots for you). Fucking a girl you just met who is in cancun on spring break when she doesn't plan on ever seeing you again is getting laid, if she's comfortable fucking you she's probably comfortable fucking some other guy who's there at the foam party, you didn't build much (or any) comfort with her through game.

Aequitas wrote:

Shit tests are the same with women - things OSCILLATE back and forth and requires one to be very in touch with where things are in that MOMENT in time. Things can change minute by minute, hell even second by second sometimes, man. The formulaic approach is too obtuse and not in line with how this plays out in real life.

Read that part above about moving from comfort backwards into attraction.

Aequitas wrote:
I am also not trying to shit on you either man, I know that this all comes from a good place from you. You're clearly very intelligent and obviously have a good grasp of the theory, but this is where I think you are falling short in your explanation.

Telling me I'm a game robot contradicts this given that you've never seen me or heard me in set. It's more likely you don't know MM, don't care to know, and are attacking me personally to avoid learning it as it may challenge your beliefs. I appreciate the compliments, and if you're sincere, the best compliment you can pay me would be to read MM yourself and see how my points fit together.

Aequitas wrote:

As for me apologizing to a chick? I'm not quite sure how that is so unbelievable lol. Sometimes I'll just tease her too hard, sometimes I come in too hot, up in her grill and i notice she's definitely into it but it was just a lot for her to handle in that moment and I just take a step back, give her some space, laugh and say "haha i'm sorry - i didn't mean to freak you out."

Did you even read what I said? I asked "Give me an example of an early appology that isn't BAD GAME", and you responded "I tease her TOO HARD", "I come in TOO HOT", and "She's DEFINATELY NOT INTO IT" a.k.a. you were un-calibrated.

My point was that you are appologizing because you were un-calibrated, and even though that appology may display some positive characteristics such as noticing her emotional state and reacting to it, or that before you felt you had to appologize you were confident enough to approach her hypersexually ("too hot") or were confident enough to tease her even though you teased her in an overlly aggressive or negative way ("too hard").

You could have approached her with a calibrated level of "hardness" or "hotness" that she is "definately into" from the start. Theoretically. Yes I understand the field is messy and mistakes are made. But they are still mistakes.

Aequitas wrote:

She'll usually laugh as well because she saw that I was able to recognize in real time that I made her slightly uncomfortable. Like dude - lol there is NOTHING wrong with apologizing. Sometimes girls respond in a way that was just somewhat unusual and unexpected, which could've occurred for a variety of reasons.

If it's unusual to you then you lack experience.

If it's unexpected you lack a good mental model.

I'm not saying you can (or should) achieve that level of experience, or that you can achieve that level of mental model, but that is the issue. Women, and reality in general are not inherrently unknowable. We learn and we make better predictions in the future.

Aequitas wrote:

What's real important in that scenario is that you're at ease with the situation, keeping it cool, and moving forward like it isn't a big deal. 

That's how you keep you state up, anxiety down, you respond well to what's happening, and your focus remains on your goal.

That's good advice in set when the ability to learn new theoretical patterns is difficult and you're applying your knowledge and trying to generate results.

That is not how you create new predictive models, other than the fact that those disciplines allow you to try new things out and test for the results (to later to be incorperated into sound theory, like say when you write up your field report).

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lol. it's cool dude, good

lol. it's cool dude, good luck with everything. 

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thanks dude, same to you lol

thanks dude, same to you lol

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This is so fucked I'm not

This is so fucked I'm not even sure where to begin. 

First of all Merv, as I've stated before, you've added nothing new you simply wrote out some basic premises using MM logic that simply doesn't do a sufficient job at all. I imagine you writing that stuff out is helpful for some guys, but this is an advanced forum some of these guys are monsters.

You hold onto MM theory because it's your one way of understanding the world of game and male/female dynamics. When anyone's asked you to go deeper than that you take the discussion to a level it can't be followed by saying you "read books" on emotional logic. That's a typical ego-defense mechanism. And it simply doesn't work here.

The fact you can't see any other possibility is itself deficient. It's a feeling of insecurity that simply won't let go, you try to hold onto that MM logical comfort zone even in the face of clear proof otherwise. If you look at people's responses, including my own here and elsewhere, you might notice that everyone has tried to appease you, tried to be agreeable, tried to compliment you.. just to get you to relax. Lol.

It's not working.

You're acting like an idiot on here, but you can't see it 'cuz you're so locked into your ego. Even the way you "complimented" Meow.. straight out of MM. Not genuine at all.. it reeked of patronization, another typical MM ego-defensive counter. That's fucking sad.

And you classify the things you don't understand or don't have a concept to explain as "mistakes"?

Merv wrote:
Yes I understand the field is messy and mistakes are made. But they are still mistakes.

Dude shut the fuck up. That is so one-dimensional and emotionally underdeveloped and dumb I can't even begin to explain how many things are wrong with that statement.

Your understand of game is so clearly limited but you're so egotistical you can't see it. Not only that you're trying to put everybody else's understanding in a box, attempting to categorize it using MM logic when it's simply not up to the task. Your logic has to rely on his lack of understanding of MM. But that's not reality. He must be intellectually flawed or inexperienced because "you are right". But he's not.

This dude's finishing his last year of law school is used to banging sorority hotties while kicking it with his high-powered frat brothers and professional alumni and you're trying to argue your understanding of game is better than that? Nope. He's banged way more girls than you, has way more experience in game than you, and has been cordial enough to try his ass off to connect with a kid still stuck in the game playing with Magic the Gathering cards. Does that chap your butthole?

You think you won because he gave up trying to communicate with you? That's sad. And lonely.

Once again MM is the problem. If you listen to Mystery talk he always addresses people like they're children. Because that's the only way he can process people, by acting towards them as if they're emotionally and intellectually inferior to himself. He can't deal with them any other way. Same way pimps maintain their view of the world by blocking out everything and everyone that doesn't agree with it. That's what you're doing here.. arguing with people while actually only holding half a deck of playing cards.

You've got multiple people telling you over and over again you're missing the mark and you simply won't see it. All you do is try and break down people's syntax when you're clearly missing the big picture. You can't see outside the confines of your own box and you're stuck in a prisoner's dilemma with everyone you meet. MM itself is based on that deficiency, trying to take women off the pedestal it unconsciously puts them on. This is why it's so attractive to men who feel inadequate in some deep-seated way.

All this time I've been operating on the assumption you were an Autobot not a Decepticon. But some people simply don't have the capacity to connect. I may have to remove you from the Skype training program. But I bet the possibility of that won't phase you one bit, because you're so locked into your ego you've already created all sorts of reasons in your head why you're secretly superior and none of us know what we're talking about. Lol. But ask yourself about your wing situation, or lack thereof. Friends? Or just casual acquaintances. Or have you already managed to rationalize all of that away as well?

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Manwhore wrote:This is so

Manwhore wrote:
This is so fucked I'm not even sure where to begin. 

First of all Merv, as I've stated before, you've added nothing new you simply wrote out some basic premises using MM logic that simply doesn't do a sufficient job at all. I imagine you writing that stuff out is helpful for some guys, but this is an advanced forum some of these guys are monsters.

I'd love to hear from them.

Manwhore wrote:

You hold onto MM theory because it's your one way of understanding the world of game and male/female dynamics. When anyone's asked you to go deeper than that you take the discussion to a level it can't be followed by saying you "read books" on emotional logic. That's a typical ego-defense mechanism. And it simply doesn't work here.

That's me not wanting or being able to play psychologist. I'd hazard it'd be far more egotistical to think I can sort out another person's emotional problems when I've never met them and don't have an ongoing relationship. That can be a lot deeper than learning (outer) game. So I've refered him to some resources, seems reasonable to me.

Manwhore wrote:

The fact you can't see any other possibility is itself deficient.

This is neither a fact or an accurate opinion.

I see plenty of possibilities. I've studied plenty of methods. You're making assumptions about my mind and then labeling them "ego-defense mechanisms". Seems like it's own "ego-defense mechanism", projection maybe?

Manwhore wrote:

It's a feeling of insecurity that simply won't let go, you try to hold onto that MM logical comfort zone even in the face of clear proof otherwise.

What clear proof? Offer some.

And I don't believe MM or any model of seduction is the end-all be all, where are you coming up with that?

Manwhore wrote:

If you look at people's responses, including my own here and elsewhere, you might notice that everyone has tried to appease you, tried to be agreeable, tried to compliment you.. just to get you to relax. Lol.

Nah, you insulted me outright. So did other people. I don't know if this is some bizaro game / NLP technique, or if the people in question are just emotionally retarded, but I can read and interpret this just fine.

But if people don't agree and don't care to talk about the content, instead trying to make things up about my "insecurities", then this isn't a forum I'll be a part of.

Manwhore wrote:

You're acting like an idiot on here, but you can't see it 'cuz you're so locked into your ego. Even the way you "complimented" Meow.. straight out of MM. Not genuine at all.. it reeked of patronization, another typical MM ego-defensive counter. That's fucking sad.

??? I don't know what you're referring to. For the record I actually like Meow and I've tried to help him however I can.

All this, stuff is you describing how you feel (It's "not genuine") and then projecting it on to me. This is what I mean by playing psychologist being a bad idea.

Manwhore wrote:

And you classify the things you don't understand or don't have a concept to explain as "mistakes"?

Merv wrote:
Yes I understand the field is messy and mistakes are made. But they are still mistakes.

Dude shut the fuck up. That is so one-dimensional and emotionally underdeveloped and dumb

More attacks.

Manwhore wrote:

I can't even begin to explain how many things are wrong with that statement.

Here, I'll try. Although I was trying to avoid calling the other guy "dumb" or say he was "acting like an idito", because to do so would hurt his ability to hear me. And you know, would be a very "emotionally underdeveloped" way of communicating with someone else, ahem, but here's why: Appologizing to someone means you did something "wrong" a.k.a. a "mistake" so if you are appologizing to someone you just met that means you made a mistake early on. That's pretty much a tautology. WIthout insulting the guy I was trying to explain this very basic fact.

But going back to the advanced guys on the forums, I'm spending time explaining basics to people who don't want to hear them. Why they need them or what their experience is I don't know, but it's a waste of everyone's time and energy.

Manwhore wrote:

Your understand of game is so clearly limited but you're so egotistical you can't see it.

"You're so egotistical"

There's this guy Ekhart Tolle you should check out. He says "To tell someone else they have ego, is itself ego." Great guy, has this book "The Power of Now", I suggest you read it lol

Manwhore wrote:

Not only that you're trying to put everybody else's understanding in a box, attempting to categorize it using MM logic when it's simply not up to the task. Your logic has to rely on his lack of understanding of MM. But that's not reality. He must be intellectually flawed or inexperienced because "you are right". But he's not.

I think the reason you believe I "put everybody's understanding in a box" is because I'm analyzing it in an attempt to gain greater understanding for both of us. The fact that I can rattle this off is not an indication of an anxiety reducting belief in a system, or an ego defense or whatever you propose, it's that I'm intelligent and knowledgable on the subject. I can understand why if you lacked one or both of those, it would seem that way.

Manwhore wrote:

This dude's finishing his last year of law school is used to banging sorority hotties while kicking it with his high-powered frat brothers and professional alumni and you're trying to argue your understanding of game is better than that? Nope. He's banged way more girls than you, has way more experience in game than you, and has been cordial enough to try his ass off to connect with a kid still stuck in the game playing with Magic the Gathering cards. Does that chap your butthole?

Nope. But good for him. I like your stories about fictional alphas vs. neckbeards though, very creative storytelling.

Manwhore wrote:

You think you won because he gave up trying to communicate with you? That's sad. And lonely.

I think it's funny and ironic that he tried an pretend alpha aloof resonse, the exact reponse you said was a low level way to deal with shit tests.

I also know that he avoided what I said about appologizing being an example of bad game when he told me all the bad game examples, and when I called him out on it he bounced.

So as far as arguing on the internet goes, I suppose I "won" in that I was right lol

But I did lose time as talking here is clearly a waste. I'll give you that.

Manwhore wrote:

Once again MM is the problem. If you listen to Mystery talk he always addresses people like they're children. Because that's the only way he can process people, by acting towards them as if they're emotionally and intellectually inferior to himself. He can't deal with them any other way. Same way pimps maintain their view of the world by blocking out everything and everyone that doesn't agree with it. That's what you're doing here.. arguing with people while actually only holding half a deck of playing cards.

I'm really not a disciple of MM. You're really stuck on that point. Is that the only way you can process me?

Manwhore wrote:

You've got multiple people telling you over and over again you're missing the mark and you simply won't see it. All you do is try and break down people's syntax when you're clearly missing the big picture.

If someone wants to talk game then great, but basically it's either character attacks or ignoring my points.

Manwhore wrote:
You can't see outside the confines of your own box and you're stuck in a prisoner's dilemma with everyone you meet.

Great example. In another thread I told a guy about the issues with his system, you came on and disagreed without adding anything, I called you out on it and asked you to provide content, an alternative, an actual explaination but you ignored it. However you clearly read my response, so when you could have made an actual point you neglected the oportunity.

With that I can say confidently that me being here is a giant waste of time.

For reference: https://www.manwhore.org/forum/content/i-just-made-my-favorite-video-so-...

Manwhore wrote:

MM itself is based on that deficiency, trying to take women off the pedestal it unconsciously puts them on. This is why it's so attractive to men who feel inadequate in some deep-seated way.

All this time I've been operating on the assumption you were an Autobot not a Decepticon. But some people simply don't have the capacity to connect. I may have to remove you from the Skype training program. But I bet the possibility of that won't phase you one bit, because you're so locked into your ego you've already created all sorts of reasons in your head why you're secretly superior and none of us know what we're talking about. Lol. But ask yourself about your wing situation, or lack thereof. Friends? Or just casual acquaintances. Or have you already managed to rationalize all of that away as well?

My opinion is there are good verbal drills, good insights into outer game, and I'm excited to hear about your physcial escalation; I know you have quality information to teach.

Yeah, socially or with wings no issues. You confuse me being selective about who I have deeper relationships with, with me being involuntarily stuck with "only aquaintences". Or do you consider me wanting to spend my time and energy only with people who enhance my life (and with whom I can enhance theirs) some sort of rationalization?

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I am a strict moralist on who

I am a strict moralist on who I impart these skills to. You want the verbal drills, the outer game techniques the world class insights into physical game, but you don't want to hear about fixing your inner issues. That is not acceptable. I will not teach someone who lacks the humanity to use these skills responsibly and gets into power struggles with seemingly everyone they meet.

As an officer I was responsible for mentoring and developing leaders in the military. It was not just about soldier skills, it was about the person inside.. who they were developing into as a leader and a man and a warrior. That is always the chief concern. It is my responsibility to not churn out more dangerous and better-equipped assholes.

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And yes, I an professionally

And yes, I am professionally equipped and qualified to use strong language when necessary. ;)

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Okay, just watched the video.

Okay, just watched the video. It was awesome! I ALWAYS used to be that guy that acted aloof when real problems needed to be addressed. I'm getting a lot better at  addressing real concerns women have. It appears to be a skillset that simply comes with experience, but watching this video defintely accelerates the process.

Also, Merv you're a wanker for making a big deal about this video. Everything you said was purely mental masterbationg, the video speaks for itself.

In an effort to add value here I have a simple text example:

Me: Pfff what did somebody lock you in the dollar general bathroom <----where this chick works

Her: Are you insulting me?  <---seriously offended

Me: lol I was joking boo, I thought it was funny

Me: hows your day treatin yah :)

Me: iim in sociology class surfing the web not paying attention to my teacher cuz imma bad boy

Her: My day is faboulous, and ouuui bad boy, sounds about right

Being aloof here and dodging her concern would have brought me further from intimacy with her. Now that I let her know it was a joke we can move forward in the right direction.

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It's not even about the video

It's not even about the video it's what he was trying to do to you guys. Trying to parade his basic bitch knowledge of mystery method like y'all were a bunch of newbs. Clearly Aequitas understood the context. This dude is so obnoxious such a huge ego complex. We all tried very hard to appease the guy make him relax but that just intensified his bullshit. He's on an rsd inner circle forum, which are always a bunch of hopeless newbs, and he's created a huge ego about teaching those guys game and tried to bring that "I'm a pickup coach" mentality onto this forum. Well honestly his game is not that good so he was basically trying to tell you guys you were third grade status so he could pretend to teach you guys game. LOL

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- Autismus Terminus Finis (Root Cause/Cure of Autism Epidemic)

- Called Off My Wedding & Other Turn Tail Signs Of The American Male

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Manwhore wrote: It's not even

Manwhore wrote:
It's not even about the video it's what he was trying to do to you guys. Trying to parade his basic bitch knowledge of mystery method like y'all were a bunch of newbs. Clearly Aequitas understood the context. This dude is so obnoxious such a huge ego complex. We all tried very hard to appease the guy make him relax but that just intensified his bullshit. He's on an rsd inner circle forum and he's created a huge ego about teaching those guys game and tried to bring that "I'm a pickup coach" mentality onto this forum. Well honestly his game is not that good so he was basically trying to tell you guys you were third grade status so he could pretend to teach you guys hanger. LOL

Yeah, it was really weird. I first noticed it in Meow's post where he was just trying to establish himself as the authority lol. It's whatever tho.